BrightSparks Forum

Go Back   BrightSparks Singapore Scholarship & Higher Education Forum > University > Overseas > Australia
Click Here if you forgot your password.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-16-2017, 11:13 PM   #31
unley
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 10
unley has a neutral reputation
Default

I'll take it one step back by trying to explain why I think choosing your medical school is so important. Your medical school equips you with the knowledge and skills needed to be a competent practitioner. Some of ways this can be achieved is by providing excellent teaching as wel as suitable clinical placements.

Flinders Uni pioneered the use of PBLs in Australia, a rather bold move which was soon adopted for use in many other Australian medical schools. However as of recent years, this method of teaching and learning has been scrapped. Additionally, compared to other universities, the amount of lectures received are somewhat lesser.

Next comes the need for suitable clinical placement spots. Flinders uses the Southern Adelaide Health network (1 of 3 in SA, comparable to the local Singaporean NUHS/SingHealth/NHG system of network) for clinical placements. The Southern network comprises of 3 main locations: Flinders Medical, the Repat and Noarlunga. The Repat is targeted for closure by end 2018. Many services have been downgraded or removed from Noarlunga in recent years.

Finally, while I acknowledge the point given by the previous poster who mentioned that NSW graduates get jobs, I would like to categorically state that this is not the case in SA. Do a quick google search for the relevant medical student associations in SA and you'll see that for this year's graduating batch of seniors, there is a total of 89 deficient intern spots. Yes. You can always get a job in a different state but that's a different problem which I can discuss at another time.

Also yes, we cannot predict what happens to policies surrounding health in the future. But the fact remains that medical student numbers are growing at a pace without a sustainable increase in intern and training spots. This is compounded by the fact that Curtin is opening another medical school which will produce graduates around the time you guys are going to graduate as well.

Let's say you decide you want to head back to Singapore to study. No one knows what will happen in the future. But I can tell you what is happening now. Increasingly students are no longer being offered the PEG (this is based on merit, in which the criteria appears to be becoming stricter resulting in less grants given). I personally know of a few Singaporean students who have tried applying for houseman jobs in Singapore without the PEG and then failing to obtain a job offer.

Once again. Yes we can't tell what will change in the future but this is what is happening now. And I think it's downright reckless if not irresponsible to jump into coming here spending all these money just because "I want to become a doctor". Please take more time to reconsider. Or try Victorian universities because they have a different allocation system for jobs there at this moment. Or better still, try again for local Singaporean spots. But of course if time and all the money spent isn't an issue for you, and you are happy to consider any other jobs after getting your MBBS/MD, by all means please come.

Worse case scenario would be the lawyer situation in Singapore where there is a massive glut and universities are taken off the list of recognized places.

This is a personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt. PLEASE TALK TO YOUR FRIENDS FROM OTHER SCHOOLS TO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF AND DO YOUR RESEARCH.

Sincerely, a SA medical student.
unley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 08:43 AM   #32
jedrek
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 57
jedrek has a neutral reputation
Default

I feel the need to agree with unley here.

Done my research on medical schools in SA and it didn't look good. A number of the ex-flinders medical graduates here,were cautious about applying specifically to medical schools in SA.

The 89 deficient spots in 2017 for internship that unley was referring to,can be found over here:
http://www.fmss.org.au/home/featured...isis-2016.html

If one doesn't apply for the PEG placing and apply back to intern in Singapore,it is generally tougher and another issue,is the consideration that one has to fulfill provisional offer of at least 2 years to full registration. That could extend to 3,4 years before one is allowed to go for specialty training.
jedrek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 02:50 PM   #33
GingerBreadman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 9
GingerBreadman has a neutral reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unley View Post
I'll take it one step back by trying to explain why I think choosing your medical school is so important. Your medical school equips you with the knowledge and skills needed to be a competent practitioner. Some of ways this can be achieved is by providing excellent teaching as wel as suitable clinical placements.

Flinders Uni pioneered the use of PBLs in Australia, a rather bold move which was soon adopted for use in many other Australian medical schools. However as of recent years, this method of teaching and learning has been scrapped. Additionally, compared to other universities, the amount of lectures received are somewhat lesser.
Yes PBL was brought up during my interview with them a few weeks back. Can I assume the two main points are:
1. PBL good, but scrapped. --> They bought over DukeNus TeamLead program iirc. Good or not, no comments.
2. amount of lectures (comparatively) are somewhat lesser --> Am curious how much lesser, say 4 lectures per week per module elsewhere in comparison to 3 lectures per week in Flinders?


Next comes the need for suitable clinical placement spots. Flinders uses the Southern Adelaide Health network (1 of 3 in SA, comparable to the local Singaporean NUHS/SingHealth/NHG system of network) for clinical placements. The Southern network comprises of 3 main locations: Flinders Medical, the Repat and Noarlunga. The Repat is targeted for closure by end 2018. Many services have been downgraded or removed from Noarlunga in recent years.
Yes, the shortage of internship spots has been brought up for quite a while, and it is especially dire in SA.

Finally, while I acknowledge the point given by the previous poster who mentioned that NSW graduates get jobs, I would like to categorically state that this is not the case in SA. Do a quick google search for the relevant medical student associations in SA and you'll see that for this year's graduating batch of seniors, there is a total of 89 deficient intern spots. Yes. You can always get a job in a different state but that's a different problem which I can discuss at another time.

Also yes, we cannot predict what happens to policies surrounding health in the future. But the fact remains that medical student numbers are growing at a pace without a sustainable increase in intern and training spots. This is compounded by the fact that Curtin is opening another medical school which will produce graduates around the time you guys are going to graduate as well.

Let's say you decide you want to head back to Singapore to study. No one knows what will happen in the future. But I can tell you what is happening now. Increasingly students are no longer being offered the PEG (this is based on merit, in which the criteria appears to be becoming stricter resulting in less grants given). I personally know of a few Singaporean students who have tried applying for houseman jobs in Singapore without the PEG and then failing to obtain a job offer.
Pertaining to the PEG, I totally understand the rationale behind it. But failing to secure a HO slot in one of SG's public healthcare sector, that is a first. Are you able to back it up? I have been working in the public healthcare sector and honestly this is the first time I have heard of this (influx of HOs). This is of serious concern if true.

Once again. Yes we can't tell what will change in the future but this is what is happening now. And I think it's downright reckless if not irresponsible to jump into coming here spending all these money just because "I want to become a doctor". Please take more time to reconsider. Or try Victorian universities because they have a different allocation system for jobs there at this moment. Or better still, try again for local Singaporean spots. But of course if time and all the money spent isn't an issue for you, and you are happy to consider any other jobs after getting your MBBS/MD, by all means please come.

Worse case scenario would be the lawyer situation in Singapore where there is a massive glut and universities are taken off the list of recognized places.

This is a personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt. PLEASE TALK TO YOUR FRIENDS FROM OTHER SCHOOLS TO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF AND DO YOUR RESEARCH.

Sincerely, a SA medical student.
As per my input in blue on top.

Last edited by GingerBreadman; 07-17-2017 at 02:58 PM.
GingerBreadman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2017, 06:51 PM   #34
unley
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 10
unley has a neutral reputation
Default

@gingerbreadman

1. Amount of teaching

I'm going to use an example comparing the amount of teaching for O&G between Flinders and Melbourne Uni. In two days, Melbourne Uni students would already have more lectures than Flinders students in their entire O&G rotation combined. I wouldn't have used this as a point if it were as minor as 3 vs 4 lectures per week for the same topic.

2. Intern spots

Discussed to death. No further comment here. TL;DR you won't get a job in SA.

3. Securing a job in Singapore

It's great you are working in the industry because you would be able to ask any of your friends about the current situation there. In particular, ask current Australian students if you know any so my opinion isn't an isolated anomaly.

I'm not sure how I can "back it up" regarding some students' inability to secure a job in Singapore. What I can tell you is that amongst the most recent medical graduates from the U.K. (Graduated June-ish 2017) are at least 2 students who have been rejected from a houseman job. Your position in the industry probably gives you far more access to people you can ask who might be able to refute/corroborate this. My personal opinion regarding this could be that these are purely isolated cases which could have an underlying reason of insufficient merit to secure a job. After all, it is unreasonable to think that MOH needs to hire all singaporeans studying medicine overseas based on nothing else besides that these students hold a red passport.

4. Back to the point of selecting your school carefully. Please consider other options. There is really no point in trying to put in all this effort, time and money and not end up having a job. Holding your MBBS in your hand is really just a piece of paper if it doesn't translate into a job as a doctor. You could argue that you like the academic rigor of medical school which I suppose isn't implausible.

5. If all these fails to deter you from coming, please note that there are other ways to obtaining a job should you fail to get one in Singapore in 4-6 years' time. You can take the licensing exams to practice in the US (USMLE) or the relevant Canadian ones. However, this begs the question of why are you even pursuing your education in a country you are not going to practice in?

6. Do note that while we can't predict workforce needs in the next 4-6 years in Singapore, one thing is certain. That the numbers of medical graduates would only increase, not only from overseas trying to return home, but also homegrown ones. The NTU LKC school would start graduating students next year.

What would you do then?
unley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2017, 10:32 AM   #35
xuruihuai12
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 10
xuruihuai12 has a neutral reputation
Default

Yes, number of graduates are increasing but isn't that because of the lack of doctors in Singapore?

Man, all this discussion is making me worried about my future after graduating.

About the Flinders programme, they said they are expanding Flinders Medical Centre to compensate for the closing of Repat. Also, they are not using PBL anymore? I thought that was one of their selling points? If there are less lectures, are they making it up with other stuff? Any current Flinders students can answer this?!!
xuruihuai12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2017, 01:05 PM   #36
unley
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 10
unley has a neutral reputation
Default

"Lack of doctors in Singapore"


Well possibly at this moment (?) but I'm not sure you can say this with the same conviction 4-6 years later when you graduate.

You can always contact the presidents of the Singapore society or med student societies to seek their opinion as well.
unley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2017, 03:30 PM   #37
GingerBreadman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 9
GingerBreadman has a neutral reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unley View Post
@gingerbreadman

1. Amount of teaching

I'm going to use an example comparing the amount of teaching for O&G between Flinders and Melbourne Uni. In two days, Melbourne Uni students would already have more lectures than Flinders students in their entire O&G rotation combined. I wouldn't have used this as a point if it were as minor as 3 vs 4 lectures per week for the same topic.
That is a drastic difference, did the school administration explain why (insufficient teaching faculty due to the new programme etc)?

2. Intern spots

Discussed to death. No further comment here. TL;DR you won't get a job in SA.

3. Securing a job in Singapore

It's great you are working in the industry because you would be able to ask any of your friends about the current situation there. In particular, ask current Australian students if you know any so my opinion isn't an isolated anomaly.
No, I usually prefer to hear from the administrator in charge of HO postings as oppose to hearsay from friends. Give me some time, will drop them an email soon.

I'm not sure how I can "back it up" regarding some students' inability to secure a job in Singapore. What I can tell you is that amongst the most recent medical graduates from the U.K. (Graduated June-ish 2017) are at least 2 students who have been rejected from a houseman job. Your position in the industry probably gives you far more access to people you can ask who might be able to refute/corroborate this. My personal opinion regarding this could be that these are purely isolated cases which could have an underlying reason of insufficient merit to secure a job. After all, it is unreasonable to think that MOH needs to hire all singaporeans studying medicine overseas based on nothing else besides that these students hold a red passport.
By "backing it up" I mean are those people "friends of friends" or do you know them personally? If it's the latter, I am sure you can enquire more on the underlying reason. Otherwise I tend to treat it as anecdotal.
Definitely not saying MOHH has an obligation to absorb all, in fact a lot of overseas med grad don't want to come back given a choice. Hence the PEG as a lure/incentive.


4. Back to the point of selecting your school carefully. Please consider other options. There is really no point in trying to put in all this effort, time and money and not end up having a job. Holding your MBBS in your hand is really just a piece of paper if it doesn't translate into a job as a doctor. You could argue that you like the academic rigor of medical school which I suppose isn't implausible.

5. If all these fails to deter you from coming, please note that there are other ways to obtaining a job should you fail to get one in Singapore in 4-6 years' time. You can take the licensing exams to practice in the US (USMLE) or the relevant Canadian ones. However, this begs the question of why are you even pursuing your education in a country you are not going to practice in?
I am not an expert on this but I would probably advise against pinning too much hope. As it is, US citizens are finding it a challenge to match back home as citizen IMGs, foreigners graduating from a non US medical school would probably find it twice as hard.

6. Do note that while we can't predict workforce needs in the next 4-6 years in Singapore, one thing is certain. That the numbers of medical graduates would only increase, not only from overseas trying to return home, but also homegrown ones. The NTU LKC school would start graduating students next year.
Yes, NTU LKC batch is the very reason I feel why PEG is being scrapped - the first batch will be graduating next year, adding to the pipeline of medical graduates. Refer to ST's article on "Medical school places to rise to 500 next year.." on 14 July '17.

What would you do then?
Is this rhetorical or directed to me specifically?
For myself: Two alarming things that you brought up needs verification, namely the vast difference in amount of teaching @ Flinders and MOHH declining HO application - within normal rates or significant trend (of rejection).
As above. 10char

Last edited by GingerBreadman; 07-18-2017 at 05:15 PM.
GingerBreadman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2017, 04:46 PM   #38
unknownsoul
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 25
unknownsoul has a neutral reputation
Default

This situation is almost a deal breaker for me. I am very worried that:

1. I might not get internship opportunities in Australia due to shortage of internship placements.

2. I might not get a place in Singapore because the current number of local medicine graduates is around 300+ (NUS and DUKENUS). This is gonna increase up to 500 (NUS, DUKENUS and NTU) in 2023 and later when the students commencing studies in 2018 in Australia graduate.

I went to read up on the PEG and this statement scares me: This Grant will be available till 31 March 2018 and any extension will be reviewed at a later date.

Is it worth the 400K SGD for a piece of paper that doesn't allow me to work at all?
unknownsoul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2017, 05:21 PM   #39
unley
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 10
unley has a neutral reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unknownsoul View Post
This situation is almost a deal breaker for me. I am very worried that:

1. I might not get internship opportunities in Australia due to shortage of internship placements.

>>> "Might" isn't a strong enough word. Unless things change, ie dramatic increase in intern spots or fresh federal policies guaranteeing spots to all graduates, YOU WILL NOT GET AN INTERN SPOT IN SA AS AN INYERNATIONAL STUDENT. <<<<<


2. I might not get a place in Singapore because the current number of local medicine graduates is around 300+ (NUS and DUKENUS). This is gonna increase up to 500 (NUS, DUKENUS and NTU) in 2023 and later when the students commencing studies in 2018 in Australia graduate.

I went to read up on the PEG and this statement scares me: This Grant will be available till 31 March 2018 and any extension will be reviewed at a later date.

Is it worth the 400K SGD for a piece of paper that doesn't allow me to work at all?

Thank you this is exactly why I decided to drop by to inform all potential incoming students about the future situation. You can't give informed consent if you haven't got all the information you need to make this huge decision.

Let's all wait and see what GingerBreadMan receives as a reply regarding statistics of Singaporeans studying overseas and getting/not getting job offers as HOs in Singapore. PEG recipients are offered jobs. But the question remains: for those who do not have the PEG but still apply for a HO position, are there any (and how many if any) who have not been successful in getting one? Also related: what percentage of PEG applicants are successful in their application?

Last edited by unley; 07-18-2017 at 09:51 PM.
unley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2017, 08:40 AM   #40
shiro
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 15
shiro has a neutral reputation
Default

http://www.straitstimes.com/singapor...re-coming-home

I think getting a HO and MO job in Singapore is no problem if you are Singaporean and have studied in a recognised overseas medical uni.

It is the long term prospects that you should explore, ie if you wanna specialise.
Are there enough residency posts available?
After attaining the specialist degree, will you be able to get a job and get promoted.
shiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +8. The time now is 05:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.