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Old 05-10-2010, 10:10 PM   #1
loryer
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Default LSE law vs local + career track

Hi everyone.

I have offers for admission into LSE and UCL (primarily) as well as NUS law in 2011. After much research I have pretty much settled on LSE, over both NUS and UCL (before they announced their change in their LLB programme, which kind of unsettles me but I'm just choosing to stick to my initial decision).

I'd just like to hear other's views on LSE vs NUS, cost aside, in terms of future career prospects as a lawyer or not, and depending on possible future employment trends from international firms/companies. Pls discuss any other issue you find pertinent as well.

For me, a major influencing point was the fact that graduating earlier gives me the opportunity to get called to the bar earlier as well, despite the required 6+6 months practice training. However I am also a little hazy over the sequence of bar exams and training periods for a law student returning from the UK. Can anyone clarify if this is correct/possible, saying I graduate in mid-2014? And also, will both 6 month periods be considered pupillage, warranting a small stipend instead of a regular pay as a first-year grad?

Graduate in mid-2014.
6 month training Jul-Dec 2014.
Part A in Aug-Nov 2014.
6 month Practice Training Period Jan-Jun 2015.
Part B in Jul-Dec 2015.


This is as compared to NUS:
Graduate in mid-2015.
Part B in Jul-Dec 2015.
6 month PTP Jan-Jun 2016.


Thanks!
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:43 PM   #2
LockT31W
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Your timeline is incorrect. Even if you graduate from LSE, you'll be called to the Bar no earlier than someone who started NUS the same time you started LSE.

This is because, if you graduate from LSE, you have to take Part A before or after you've completed the 1st 6 months of training. In your timeline, you intend to take Part A after just 4/5 months of training, which cannot be done. The annual date for Part A is set so that there's no way any fresh overseas grad can complete the 6 months of training before taking Part A in the same year of graduation. In any case, the 6 mths training and the Part A course are both full-time, so they cannot be concurrent.

Which means that, after graduating from LSE, you need to take Part A first. Then you do the 1st 6 mths training after Part A, starting Jan 2015. The Rules also state that, since you'd complete the 1st 6 mths training after Part A and not before, you can only commence your 6 mths PTP after Part B, which means your PTP takes place in Jan-Jun 2016, same as the NUS grad. So essentially the Rules ensure that no advantage in timing is conferred to UK grads.

If you want to work in Singapore, NUS is just as good a choice as Oxbridge or LSE. But outside Singapore it's a different story, since Oxbridge, LSE, etc are undoubtedly viewed more favourably than NUS.
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Last edited by LockT31W; 05-10-2010 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:48 AM   #3
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Hi there,

Allow me to add.

An overseas graduate can take part A of the exams, despite having only served 4-5 mths of the continuous legal training or work experience. I clarified this personally with the Board of Legal Education.

For an overseas student graduating in June 2014, here is the possible timeline:

July - Dec 2014: Commence with 6 continuous months of legal training (note this is not the pupilage)

Nov 2014: Take Part A of the bar exams, while serving the 6 mths of legal training. (the prep course is optional)

Jan - June 2015: Commence with Pupilage (they re-label it as Practice Training Period)

July - Dec 2015: Commence with Part B of bar exams.

The above timeline has been verified and certified acceptable by the Board of Legal Education, Singapore.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:29 PM   #4
loryer
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Hi guys, thanks for the informative replies.

emilmei, I presume you are studying law in the UK currently/matriculating soon? LockT31W, the information regarding the timeline you present does seem to be what the MLaw website details, and I see you advocating this view that "the Rules ensure that no advantage in timing is conferred to UK grads" in other threads. However do you know or heard of any personal friends who have actually managed to go through what emilmei described?

With regard to the first 6 months of training after graduating, will firms consider it a pupillage or rather like an internship?

Also, can I find out if part B is full-time, since lectures are throughout the day (I presume this is not a daily thing) but tutorials only in the evening?
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:32 PM   #5
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Hi loryer, I suggest you also take this up personally with the BLE, since the Rules still explicitly state that 6 months of training have to be completed before the exam. This new system was just introduced last year, so I don't know anyone who's been through this. However, the principle for the old system of 1-year DipSing for overseas grads was partly to ensure UK grads get no advantage compared to SG grads, and I wouldn't expect this to change for the new system.

Still, based on what emilmei said, I think you should ask the BLE for clarification. If they say what emilmei told us, remind the person about the Rules and ask if there's any conflict with the Rules. Try to get something in black and white, like an email reply, in case they change their minds or someone screws up in giving you the wrong info.
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Last edited by LockT31W; 05-11-2010 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:54 PM   #6
loryer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LockT31W View Post
Hi loryer, I suggest you also take this up personally with the BLE, since the Rules still explicitly state that 6 months of training have to be completed before the exam.
Hi all, I've just received the reply from BLE stating that "As the law stands now, your timetable is possible and correct."

I did specifically inquire if it is possible to take Part A having only served 4-5 months of the continuous legal training.

Edit:
Here is the explicit confirmation which I sought -
You may serve your 6 continuous months of relevant legal training concurrently with Part A.

After you have completed both your relevant legal training and Part A, you may commence your practice training period before Part B if you can do it in 6 months within an 8-month period before Part B.


Hope this is useful information for overseas law students

Last edited by loryer; 05-19-2010 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 06-25-2010, 03:30 PM   #7
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I doubt what the BLE has told you is correct. Maybe there has been a misunderstanding, or the person replying is not sure. I have looked through the rules and they are quite clear.

Rule 3(1) of the Legal Profession (Practice Training Period) Rules 2009
http://www.agc.gov.sg/lps/docs/Legal...s_2009_000.pdf

Generally, one cannot serve the practice training period before Part B. There are some exceptions.

Those qualified before 2009, LSOs, and under Rule 3(2)(b)(i) overseas graduates who have passed Part A and served 6 months of relevant training or work.

However, Rule 3(2)(b)(ii) requires you to satisfy the requirement of continuous legal training before passing Part A. (see also http://www.agc.gov.sg/lps/docs/Legal...ersons_000.pdf) There are the usual exemptions for LSOs or those qualified in other jurisdictions before 2009.

So I think there might be some misinterpretation somewhere. Maybe the BLE meant that you can concurrently do Part A during the training but still must complete training before passing Part A.

Anyway in practice all UK grads I know do Part A course, then 6 months training, followed by Part B and practice training period. Don't underestimate the Part A course, I doubt its the sort of thing you can do while engaged full time (and probably overtime) at a law firm. As far as I've heard it is not difficult but there are a fair few subjects.

The other difficulty is finding a firm that will take you under this arrangement.
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:20 PM   #8
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hi all. i am seeking to study law in UCL or LSE. i'm actually checking what are the chances of me getting into UCL or LSE law with these a B for GP?

and I am taking 4 H2, must I get straight As or 3 As is sufficient? The criteria also states A*AA but I don't recall A levels having an A* grade.
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:46 PM   #9
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The A* grade is for those taking Cambridge A levels. Since you're taking Singapore-Cambridge A levels, the highest grade is an A.

I have heard that they only look at the 3H2 As, but I would suggest aiming for 4H2 As all the same. But if you apply in the regular timeline (ie, before A level results come out), the highest conditional offer they might give you would be AAA, meaning that you only need 3H2 As.

Good luck!
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Old 09-09-2010, 11:21 PM   #10
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i would love to get a conditional offer from UCL but I have to serve NS and they would only allow 1 year deferment right? for my case, should I just apply, get the conditional offer and then mail them my results when I get it in Mar 2011, followed by an appeal for 2 year deferment?

My senior got 2 year deferment from UCL. he got accepted and he simply emailed the admission officer, requesting for that and it got approved.

Also, one minor question for UCL undergraduates. UCL offers a 4-year law programme which includes one year studying in Singapore. for that, will students under that law programme follow the track of Singapore law graduates? Because I know other UK law schools offer 3 year programme and UK law graduates come back to SG and undergo a training programme to ensure that they do not have an edge over their singaporean counterparts.
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