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Old 04-22-2014, 06:21 PM   #1
cbrownzzz
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Default Attrition rates of Lawyers in Singapore

Hi, I have heard anecdotally about the high attrition rate among Law students in Singapore, in that many Law students either:

i) Drop out
ii) Not get called up to the bar after getting their degree and pursue another career instead
iii) Leave the legal sector mid-career because they cannot handle the rigour and competition of being a lawyer in Singapore.

Does anyone have statistics on Attrition rates among law students/lawyers in Singapore?

In trying to figure out why I want to study law I have asked many questions of myself: Do I want to become a lawyer, and what kind of lawyer do I want to be? My dad talks about how the corporate lawyers (inhouse counsels?) working in his company have really shitty jobs: Long hours perusing reports, contracts and legislation for the company. Granted, they really earn a lot of money, but I would never want a job where I spend my days reading tons of documents and not working together with my colleagues, however lucrative it is. Is the nature of most lawyer jobs like this? I like reading, but I would like a job with interaction and working together with others, at least.

So I wonder if anyone here has had similar experiences, and regretted their decision to read Law? If anyone would offer statistics on the kinds of first jobs Law students from NUS and SMU take up upon graduation, that would be great.

TL;DR VERSION: What is the attrition rate of lawyers in Singapore, and what is the percentage breakdown of the work lawyers do?

Anecdotes and musings from seniors are welcome as well
Thanks in advance!
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Old 04-22-2014, 07:52 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrownzzz View Post
Hi, I have heard anecdotally about the high attrition rate among Law students in Singapore, in that many Law students either:

i) Drop out
ii) Not get called up to the bar after getting their degree and pursue another career instead
iii) Leave the legal sector mid-career because they cannot handle the rigour and competition of being a lawyer in Singapore.

Does anyone have statistics on Attrition rates among law students/lawyers in Singapore?

In trying to figure out why I want to study law I have asked many questions of myself: Do I want to become a lawyer, and what kind of lawyer do I want to be? My dad talks about how the corporate lawyers (inhouse counsels?) working in his company have really shitty jobs: Long hours perusing reports, contracts and legislation for the company. Granted, they really earn a lot of money, but I would never want a job where I spend my days reading tons of documents and not working together with my colleagues, however lucrative it is. Is the nature of most lawyer jobs like this? I like reading, but I would like a job with interaction and working together with others, at least.

So I wonder if anyone here has had similar experiences, and regretted their decision to read Law? If anyone would offer statistics on the kinds of first jobs Law students from NUS and SMU take up upon graduation, that would be great.

TL;DR VERSION: What is the attrition rate of lawyers in Singapore, and what is the percentage breakdown of the work lawyers do?

Anecdotes and musings from seniors are welcome as well
Thanks in advance!
MinLaw came up with a pretty detailed report (http://www.mlaw.gov.sg/content/dam/m...e%20Report.pdf), but TL: DR, 3 out of 4 will leave within the first decade of practice (http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking...practising-law). The MinLaw report also contains a breakdown of legal professionals (in-house, legal service, private practice, academics etc).

If you read the report, they talk about three reasons: Bad work-life balance, law students not realizing they're not suited to legal practice, and pyramidal structure of law firms, which encourages people who don't get promoted to leave.

I'm not a practising lawyer yet, but I have interned in both the legal service as well as private practice (small Sg law firm, London office of US firm, and shadowed a legal in house counsel in Sg). Generally, the sentiment I got was that the hours in private practice can be bad, mostly because you're working to suit your client's needs. If they tell you on Friday night that they want to file an injunction to arrest a ship on Monday, that's just bad luck for your weekend plans. Again, this is dependent on which area of work (eg litigation pretty much means you follow court schedules - if you have a deadline coming up, prepare to pull long hours, M&A will intensify when a deal is in closing stages), your boss, firm culture and lots of other factors. Also bear in mind that Corporate isn't the be all end all in law - there are plenty of other sectors that might interest you better (eg Family, Crime, Conveyancing, Employment). You could also consider "lesser-trodden" paths like academia, think-tanks/ NGOs too, if that's up your alley.

Government service tends to afford better hours (technically 8:30-6pm, although I've seen people work later than that too). I would have thought that legal in houses have it slightly better than private practice too, although that's dependent on workflow obviously (eg if you're involved in a court case, or the EU/US decides to push through some legislation that's going to have an impact on the firm).

I'm not sure how indicative my experience is, but when I interned in London, I felt that people did work together, within and across departments. The fact of the matter is that the individual case is so huge that no one can really be expected to handle it alone. Most of the time, cases also involve multi-disciplinary issues (eg in an M&A deal, you would have to take into account things like Finance, Employment, Tax, Anti-Competition etc), so lawyers do collaborate across departments to some extent. They don't sit in their offices holed up all the time (although I admit that research, writing and other administrative tasks are common, particularly for juniors). I did actually find my time very enjoyable - people were friendly and willing to teach me, and the firm had a very collegiate atmosphere.

I think the bottomline is, it's incredibly rare to both have your cake and eat it too. Most high paying jobs tend to involve pretty terrible hours (eg investment banking). That said, I know some who really love what they do, long hours and all. My suggestion would be to talk to people in practice, perhaps try to intern somewhere (although the associates tend to kick interns out, or at least pester you to go home when it gets late from my experience). Obviously, nothing's quite like being in the hot seat, but at least you're going into it with your eyes open.

Incidentally, nothing wrong with not practising Law either - I have a senior who's training to be an ordained minister and a friend who's going to be a church apprentice after graduation. A Law degree is still good training intellectually IMO, and I wouldn't say I regret choosing my degree.
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:44 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by cbrownzzz View Post
My dad talks about how the corporate lawyers (inhouse counsels?) working in his company have really shitty jobs: Long hours perusing reports, contracts and legislation for the company. Granted, they really earn a lot of money, but I would never want a job where I spend my days reading tons of documents and not working together with my colleagues, however lucrative it is.
In the companies that I've worked in, the inhouse counsels have to work a lot with other people... just that you are working with external lawyers (if your company engages any) and you'll be working with your "internal customers" i.e. the colleagues from the business side of the company... these could be people from marketing, sales, research, engineering, etc etc... it really depends on the company.

Most people I've met who moved from a law firm to inhouse counsel seemed very happy with their choice - especially with the much better work life balance. though I can't say that this is representative of all companies.

Last edited by VIPR; 04-23-2014 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 04-24-2014, 10:09 AM   #4
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Thanks mishieru and VIPR for your informative replies!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mishieru07 View Post
3 out of 4 will leave within the first decade of practice
That's pretty scary actually. And that's what makes me worried, because Law is such a specialised degree that I'm afraid that it might jeopardise my future if I find out mid-career that I'm not suited for Law after all.
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by cbrownzzz View Post
Thanks mishieru and VIPR for your informative replies!

That's pretty scary actually. And that's what makes me worried, because Law is such a specialised degree that I'm afraid that it might jeopardise my future if I find out mid-career that I'm not suited for Law after all.
I think the fear that you dislike your job isn't unique to lawyers! The best you can do is to do your due diligence - no one can ever be 100% certain.

Mid-career switches have been done in the past, and successfully too - Awfully Chocolate was founded by a lawyer, I know a lawyer who left to teach (and then came back to practise in the end), another one went on to do grad recruitment/ HR etc.

It might also be worth bearing in mind that a lot of degrees aren't job-specific (eg business, social sciences), which suggests that there is a reasonable number of jobs out there that don't have technical prerequisites anyway.
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:23 AM   #6
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Hi, aside from the informative replies that mishieru07 and VIPR have provided, just would like to add some insights here as well, to help you along in your decision-making!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrownzzz View Post
Hi, I have heard anecdotally about the high attrition rate among Law students in Singapore, in that many Law students either:

i) Drop out
ii) Not get called up to the bar after getting their degree and pursue another career instead
iii) Leave the legal sector mid-career because they cannot handle the rigour and competition of being a lawyer in Singapore.

Does anyone have statistics on Attrition rates among law students/lawyers in Singapore?
I think you're confusing being a law student with the practice of law as a profession. That's understandable, because most people associate law school with being a lawyer, and that's overwhelmingly the case.

Law school involves hard work, is rigorous and fairly academic, but the attrition rate is actually rather low. True, some people drop out or study elsewhere, but its fairly rare. Most see it through to graduation. If you're reasonably diligent, there shouldn't be any issues academically, barring unforeseen personal circumstances. The people you meet in school are amazingly bright, sharp and generally helpful. There's always competition due to grading on a curve, but it isn't as bad as it sounds. In fact, you'll come out of it with an intellectually-stimulating and satisfying undergraduate experience.

Then there is the practice of law, which is really dependent on your aspirations and personal bent. It also depends on where you will work (which area of practice, which law firm). I think the reasons for the attrition, especially amongst the "middle category" of lawyers, have been adequately identified.

Do note that there are many reasons aside from the high-pressured environment that may explain the attrition rate. Females do make up about 50% of new entrants (it is a fairly gender-balanced profession), and many will stop working after they get married and start families. I daresay the attrition rate may actually be closer to other comparable professional services sectors than people realise - just that its easy to keep track of lawyer numbers since practicing lawyers are regulated, and the fraternity is small.

This is of course, not to say that practice isn't tough. You'll often be working bankers' hours for lawyers' pay - and I think sometimes people tend to overestimate the salaries of lawyers. From seniors and mentors that I've talked to, the allure of money diminishes rapidly and you really need to love the law and the type of work that you do, to sustain. For that reason perhaps, people soon realise that burning weekends for relatively high pay isn't exactly good quality of life; and our generation is quite hung up on the whole "work-life" balance kind of thing

Quote:
In trying to figure out why I want to study law I have asked many questions of myself: Do I want to become a lawyer, and what kind of lawyer do I want to be? My dad talks about how the corporate lawyers (inhouse counsels?) working in his company have really shitty jobs
There are many different and varied types of lawyers, broadly classifiable into litigation lawyers and transactional lawyers (based on the nature of their work). Its impossible to say which bent you are, but one thing is clear - whichever you are, you need to love (or tolerate) looking at documents, reports, cases and statements. Forget the (inaccurate) TV portrayals about eloquent lawyers taking the rostrum and charming the courtroom silly! A lawyer's craft is language, and he invariably deals with words and letters. That's how he brings value to his clients. You will spend your days looking at documents, because that's part and parcel of your job: to understand your client's needs, what his problems are, and what the best solution is, all within a regulatory framework that must also conform to the realities of his business or personal priorities and situation; and of course, to be thoroughly prepared, because that is your penultimate professional duty (your ultimate duty is to the court).

Don't confine yourself to "corporate". Litigation can be challenging and fun. Criminal litigation is a whole different ballgame. The best advice I can think of for you is to apply to intern in law firms (in various departments). Many do take in pre-laws, and you'll get a brief taste of how its like: the working culture, the hours they put in (a very pragmatic but important consideration), the kind of people who are lawyers, the demands of their job. You may not understand everything they're doing at this stage, but you can get a sense of working in private practice.

Quote:
So I wonder if anyone here has had similar experiences, and regretted their decision to read Law? If anyone would offer statistics on the kinds of first jobs Law students from NUS and SMU take up upon graduation, that would be great.
I never regretted my decision to read law - law school was when I really matured and learnt to see the world and structure my thoughts in a certain way. It was also a very fine experience as I mentioned above. Personally, I didn't know what I was getting into when I applied, and only had the vaguest notion of what legal practice entailed. I suspect that's how most 18 year olds are. Its okay to not be sure. As you immerse in it, you may love it or hate it, or more likely, somewhere in between. I was indifferent at the start, but when I began to see how the law is a way of ordering, and is a response to, society and social relations, and was so much more than an arbitrary bunch of rules, I began to appreciate it immensely and valued what I studied.

Most law graduates will work in legal practice, whether in government or private. Its kind of the "expected path"; as you may expect, in Singapore there are very few public-interest type legal work. So in fact, most will get called to the bar. Whether they stay on is another story. If lawyering is not for you, an LLB puts you at no disadvantage whatsoever in applying to very many kinds of jobs.

Quote:
And that's what makes me worried, because Law is such a specialised degree that I'm afraid that it might jeopardise my future if I find out mid-career that I'm not suited for Law after all.
Law is not a specialised degree at all. Despite the fact that its a pre-requisite to a profession, it is no more specialised than say, business, engineering or economics (maybe even less so). So don't feel constrained, because your options are wide. The greatest thing about a law degree is that it trains you to think in a certain way, and is a fairly useful intellectual framework to have in your life even though you may do nothing remotely related to law in future.

I'm sorry for the long rambling post. Please do not see this as a pitch for you to go to law school. But I hope that my sharing here will sharpen and clarify the decision that only you can make for yourself!

Last edited by MarcusConstantine; 04-26-2014 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 04-28-2014, 01:49 PM   #7
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Fine, perhaps offtopic, but anybody be aware of a nice figure out the word (kind of trivia) game for iphone 4 ?
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:13 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by MarcusConstantine View Post
Hi, aside from the informative replies that mishieru07 and VIPR have provided, just would like to add some insights here as well, to help you along in your decision-making!

I think you're confusing being a law student with the practice of law as a profession. That's understandable, because most people associate law school with being a lawyer, and that's overwhelmingly the case.

Law school involves hard work, is rigorous and fairly academic, but the attrition rate is actually rather low. True, some people drop out or study elsewhere, but its fairly rare. Most see it through to graduation. If you're reasonably diligent, there shouldn't be any issues academically, barring unforeseen personal circumstances. The people you meet in school are amazingly bright, sharp and generally helpful. There's always competition due to grading on a curve, but it isn't as bad as it sounds. In fact, you'll come out of it with an intellectually-stimulating and satisfying undergraduate experience.

Then there is the practice of law, which is really dependent on your aspirations and personal bent. It also depends on where you will work (which area of practice, which law firm). I think the reasons for the attrition, especially amongst the "middle category" of lawyers, have been adequately identified.

Do note that there are many reasons aside from the high-pressured environment that may explain the attrition rate. Females do make up about 50% of new entrants (it is a fairly gender-balanced profession), and many will stop working after they get married and start families. I daresay the attrition rate may actually be closer to other comparable professional services sectors than people realise - just that its easy to keep track of lawyer numbers since practicing lawyers are regulated, and the fraternity is small.

This is of course, not to say that practice isn't tough. You'll often be working bankers' hours for lawyers' pay - and I think sometimes people tend to overestimate the salaries of lawyers. From seniors and mentors that I've talked to, the allure of money diminishes rapidly and you really need to love the law and the type of work that you do, to sustain. For that reason perhaps, people soon realise that burning weekends for relatively high pay isn't exactly good quality of life; and our generation is quite hung up on the whole "work-life" balance kind of thing



There are many different and varied types of lawyers, broadly classifiable into litigation lawyers and transactional lawyers (based on the nature of their work). Its impossible to say which bent you are, but one thing is clear - whichever you are, you need to love (or tolerate) looking at documents, reports, cases and statements. Forget the (inaccurate) TV portrayals about eloquent lawyers taking the rostrum and charming the courtroom silly! A lawyer's craft is language, and he invariably deals with words and letters. That's how he brings value to his clients. You will spend your days looking at documents, because that's part and parcel of your job: to understand your client's needs, what his problems are, and what the best solution is, all within a regulatory framework that must also conform to the realities of his business or personal priorities and situation; and of course, to be thoroughly prepared, because that is your penultimate professional duty (your ultimate duty is to the court).

Don't confine yourself to "corporate". Litigation can be challenging and fun. Criminal litigation is a whole different ballgame. The best advice I can think of for you is to apply to intern in law firms (in various departments). Many do take in pre-laws, and you'll get a brief taste of how its like: the working culture, the hours they put in (a very pragmatic but important consideration), the kind of people who are lawyers, the demands of their job. You may not understand everything they're doing at this stage, but you can get a sense of working in private practice.



I never regretted my decision to read law - law school was when I really matured and learnt to see the world and structure my thoughts in a certain way. It was also a very fine experience as I mentioned above. Personally, I didn't know what I was getting into when I applied, and only had the vaguest notion of what legal practice entailed. I suspect that's how most 18 year olds are. Its okay to not be sure. As you immerse in it, you may love it or hate it, or more likely, somewhere in between. I was indifferent at the start, but when I began to see how the law is a way of ordering, and is a response to, society and social relations, and was so much more than an arbitrary bunch of rules, I began to appreciate it immensely and valued what I studied.

Most law graduates will work in legal practice, whether in government or private. Its kind of the "expected path"; as you may expect, in Singapore there are very few public-interest type legal work. So in fact, most will get called to the bar. Whether they stay on is another story. If lawyering is not for you, an LLB puts you at no disadvantage whatsoever in applying to very many kinds of jobs.



Law is not a specialised degree at all. Despite the fact that its a pre-requisite to a profession, it is no more specialised than say, business, engineering or economics (maybe even less so). So don't feel constrained, because your options are wide. The greatest thing about a law degree is that it trains you to think in a certain way, and is a fairly useful intellectual framework to have in your life even though you may do nothing remotely related to law in future.

I'm sorry for the long rambling post. Please do not see this as a pitch for you to go to law school. But I hope that my sharing here will sharpen and clarify the decision that only you can make for yourself!
Thank you Marcus for your post! It was incredibly informative Thank you for giving us prospective law students an in-depth analysis of reading and practising law, I'm sure many lurkers are thanking you!

Can you tell us more about the rigour of Law School? I intend to stay in NUS hall if I get in and I have heard stories about how hall life is incredibly intense and time-consuming. How difficult is it to balance such a lifestyle? And how many hours of study a day on average are needed to maintain a decent/good grade? (say 2:1) Anecdotes would be appreciated

Anyway, I was referring to "attrition" as in lawyers who get called to the bar then switch career, not really dropouts in law school haha. My concern is that although law degree holders are no more specialised than many others such as business, I am worried because:

1. Wouldn't prospective employers be put off by the high starting pay that law students require? For general-degree jobs that is.

2. IMO there is a serious oversupply of business graduates and given this competition for jobs which require general degrees and the large number of finance-related jobs I think they would have a competitive advantage. So business graduates would be better suited for those jobs wouldn't they?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to help us!

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Fine, perhaps offtopic, but anybody be aware of a nice figure out the word (kind of trivia) game for iphone 4 ?
What.
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Old 05-04-2014, 12:20 AM   #9
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Can you tell us more about the rigour of Law School? I intend to stay in NUS hall if I get in and I have heard stories about how hall life is incredibly intense and time-consuming. How difficult is it to balance such a lifestyle? And how many hours of study a day on average are needed to maintain a decent/good grade? (say 2:1) Anecdotes would be appreciated
You're welcome.

Hall
Yes I do believe it is tough to maintain a hall-life and studies, but by no means impossible and there're people who are able to. You just need to be very disciplined.

How intense your hall life is would depend on several factors, such as whether you desire to stay on after your freshman year, which in turn would affect how many activities you need to participate in; personally how willing you are to join in the various CCAs/sports, and hall interactive/social activities, and how much you want to hang out with your hall friends, and how much sleep you need!

Do note that you'll be shuttling between 2 campuses. You can't simply wake up at 8.45am and saunter off to a 9am lecture like the main campus students can! It can get tiring after a while.

I think the key really is discipline, passion and some sort of motivation which allows you to overcome the geographical and systemic challenges of not being a main campus student. There will always be a handful of fellow law Year 1 students who stay in hall, so you aren't entirely alone for the early morning trudge to school - very few, however, actually stay on after Year 1. If your passion lies in sports, this may be a strong enough factor that makes staying in hall as a law student worthwhile and less of a challenge.

You will also need to split your time between your hall and law school social circle. This one is idiosyncratic and I can't answer that for you, other than that you need to be an energetic person

I hope what I've said above doesn't sound too negative! Its not to be read as a laundry list of how miserable your hall life as a law student is! I'm giving you the realistic challenges that you need to consider. You may in fact find hall life to be the most enjoyable and memorable aspect of your undergrad days.

Rigour of law school
The workload can seem pretty intense at times, but the key is discipline and time management. If you're a procrastinator, haha, it can get difficult. But if you do consistent work, its actually very manageable.

The good thing about reading law is that our contact hours don't include any time-consuming lab sessions, so our contact hours are actually OK. After a while, when you get the hang of things, some lessons are actually skippable (not recommended as a regualr practice). Also, continual assessments are quite minimal - this means very little to no group work - no i.e. 2 hour group meeting wasted around discussing who does which portion of the project with very little actually accomplished! Since its between you and the books, just study! The downside is that exam season is a stressful season, because a 2.5hr paper makes or breaks an entire subject.

For the actually studying itself, it really differs from person to person. Some people never read full cases or any cases at all and rely on seniors' notes/outlines. Prudent people prepare for exams by spotting essays, doing frameworks and making pre-prepped essay answers. I suggest though, you actually do read the cases, make your own exam notes and absorb the material - its a more satisfying learning experience! As they say, Singaporeans like to focus too much on the exams rather than what they actually learn from the course content. If you plan on being a top student, plan on spending a lot of time studying. I'm sorry I really can't break it down into a number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrownzzz View Post
My concern is that although law degree holders are no more specialised than many others such as business, I am worried because:

1. Wouldn't prospective employers be put off by the high starting pay that law students require? For general-degree jobs that is.

2. IMO there is a serious oversupply of business graduates and given this competition for jobs which require general degrees and the large number of finance-related jobs I think they would have a competitive advantage. So business graduates would be better suited for those jobs wouldn't they?
1) I believe that its an employer's market when it comes to hiring in Singapore. Hence, employers set the salaries based on whatever the market rate is. So no, I don't see how a law student can ask for a higher salary than the market rate for the position he's applying for.

As to whether they would be put off, they might be if they reckon that you're going to jump ship to the legal industry. The onus on you is to convince them that you're really set on the position and the particular industry that you're applying for.

2) For finance specific degrees, of course biz grads would be advantaged. But there are other so-called corporate positions that don't actually require business degrees (management consulting, HR, operations, marketing, business development, corp comms). Even IB analysts need not be business graduates and come from any discipline.
see for e.g. (http://www.goldmansachs.com/careers/...lyst-copy.html)
But I'm speaking out of turn here as I'm not all that familiar with IB, and I suppose you must have stellar grades and extracurriculars, and come from "target" schools.

Many Arts grads also apply and obtain corporate positions. So in this sense at least, law is on the same footing in that you're not limited by your field of study. Its not like you've graduated with a Bachelor of Fine Arts (Dance) and are now applying for a business position!
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